This is a transcript for The Dirt episode, “David Heinemeier Hansson and Basecamp”
Mark: What kind of pants did Mario and Luigi wear? Denim, denim, denim.
Tim: Hello and welcome to The Dirt. I’m your host, Tim Wright, and today
I’m here with Steve Hickey.
Tim: Mark Grambau.
Mark: Good morning, or afternoon.
Tim: Thank you.
Mark: Your welcome.
Tim: And special guest, David Heinemeier Hansson. David, welcome to the
David: Hey Guys
Tim: Now you’re from recently renamed Basecamp, how’s that going?
David: Pretty well, I’m actually surprised just how positive the
reception has been. I had expected a whole lot more push-back from people.
Tim: Yeah, it was huge news, I came in in the morning and Steve’s like,
“Hold on, hold on, hold on. Did you hear the news?”
Mark: He was like, “Are you sitting down? You need to sit down.”
Steve: None of that happened.
Tim: He said in the article, “I wept but then I accepted it.”
Mark: As awesome.
Steve: I’m surprised, you said people have been really excepting of
it. I know that there’s community around Campfire, for example, they appear
to be reacting pretty well to it at least.
David: Yeah, that was surprising to me too. We certainly expected that
since we’re just going to focus on basically going forward that there would
be customers of the other products that would take that ill, and certainly
there have been some people who haven’t been thrilled, which is completely
natural. But we expected backlash from that crowd to be a lot worse than it
was. We had a fair number of customers who would use Basecamp, would use
some of the other apps, and they were very accepting of our new direction
which surprised me.
I think it helped too the way we sort of went about it that this
wasn’t the standard internet company sunset, “Hey, changed our strategy.
Get your shit and get out of here in the 30 to 60 days because we’re going
to shut it down,” which is usually how people go about it. But I think
we’ve been practicing this for a while, over the past couple of years we’ve
sort of put into maintenance mode a couple of applications.
We had a bunch of free stuff, Ta-Da List and Writeboard, that we did
that with a couple years ago, we did it with Backpack which is a paid
product, and we’ve done it with Basecamp Classic. And all of those
transitions went a whole lot smoother just because we said, “Well, we’re
just going to keep running it.” The hard part on our part at least about
running a service is not so much keeping it stable and unchanged and the
lights on, the hard part is continuing to invest and improve and so forth.
So, we accept that the cost that comes with the change of strategy like
this is that we’ll have some legacy products that we still have to make
sure that the lights are on but the expense for that is well worth.
Tim: So what brought up the whole name change thing? I knew you guys had
been focused on Basecamp for a while but what kind of kick started the “we
should change the name of the company”?
David: Well, that’s funny because we’ve actually sort of had this idea
a couple times over the years and I think we’ve always sort of, from the
beginning Basecamp has been the big thing. We’ve launched a lot of other
products and quite a few of them have been pretty successful. Campfire in
its niche is certainly quite successful, Highrise has been wildly
successful, but none of them were as successful as Basecamp has been. And
Basecamp is the app that for us, ourselves internally, is the one the whole
company revolves around.
Campfire certainly also very important but Basecamp is really the
backbone. We’ve run everything in Basecamp, I mean we have currently I
think 115 active projects. On any given day, about 30 of them are updated.
When I get my daily recap in the morning it says, “30 projects have new
updates.” So we’re very, very heavy users of Basecamp and I think for us
sort of that self-use is just incredibly important. If you take something
like Highrise on the other hand, we started out using it a bunch but even
when we were using it a bunch it was mainly just Jason and I, it was Jason
and I keeping track of our vendors and journalists and so forth and that
sort of just dropped off. We started using it a lot less, the rest of the
company wasn’t using it versus Basecamp, everybody in the company used
Basecamp is where we do the work, Basecamp tracks everybody’s work,
everybody has to-do lists assigned and they have their calendar and they
have all this stuff in Basecamp. So there’s just a natural excitement
around Basecamp within the company that none of the other products really
had, except to some extent to Campfire. Campfire certainly, everybody used
Campfire and we wouldn’t function well without Campfire either but we think
there are perhaps better ways for us to solve that problem that’s not sort
of a standalone separate product.
So, anyway, that was sort of what brought it up and then, as Jason
tells it, he went on his first vacation in three or four years and came
back after a week, I hardly call a week a vacation but that’s a vacation in
Jason’s book, and he came back with a fresh pair of eyes and we took look
at, “Where are we? Where’s the business right now? Where have we gone? What
are we doing?” And the numbers really all pointed to one thing, on top of
all this usage stuff the numbers were just there.
When we look at signups, Basecamp just signs up an incredible amount
of new companies every week. We have about 6,000 or 7,000 new companies
signup for Basecamp every week. I mean, that’s just a magnitude that’s kind
of at times for me even hard to fathom. And I understand, I mean, it’s not
web scale, I’m sure Facebook signs up about another trillion billion people
all the time but for something like Basecamp, a business tool, 7,000
companies signing up very week is just a monumental influx of people. And
when we compare that to the other products, even though they were doing
very well, it just wasn’t on the same scale and the conclusion was that,
“Hey, all these things are lining up.
We use Basecamp more than any other product ourselves, we’ve been
using it for ten years, we’re incredibly passionate about it, this is where
the beef is. Most people know us for Basecamp just because it is the
largest product we’ve had, have such a great legacy for it, and we have
such an incredible influx of new customers, it deserves our undivided
Steve: It sounds like such an obvious move but it’s so obvious that
you probably skated by it for a while and just sort of, “Yeah, we could
just focus on Basecamp and nothing else. Okay, let’s get back to working on
some Campfire stuff this week.” And then eventually one day somebody
realized, “Hey, that’s actually a really good idea.”
David: It’s one of those things where I think most businesses wouldn’t
David: And most businesses wouldn’t do this because it actually had
real cost. Highrise, for example, is doing very, very well, it’s doing
insanely well when you consider that we really haven’t paid much attention
to it over the past two, two and a half years where we’ve been focused
exclusively Basecamp, basically since we started the new version of
Steve: So I know you’re entertaining purchase offers for Highrise and
Campfire. Is there something specific you’re looking for with an entity
looking to purchase one of those?
David: Yes, I think for us the most important thing is to take care of
our customers. We care incredibly much about our elegance and making sure
that our customers are taken care of. For us this was always more about our
focus as a company, who we are as a company, who we want to be as a
company, more so than a financial decision. And that’s why I’m saying most
companies wouldn’t do this because at least it’s a risky financial move,
we’re giving up a pretty significant slice, even though Basecamp is a big
thing it’s certainly real money that we’re saying, “Oh well.”
We’re going to take some sort of loss here, we would certainly make a
lot more money off Highrise if we just said, “Oh, well, let’s just invest
in it, let’s grow it, let’s make it bigger.” So that was never just just
the only motivating factor and we’ve gotten a couple of offers already, not
specific offers, expressions of interest, from companies where we’re like,
“That’s probably not going to be a good fit because they either have an
existing product,” or we could just see a path where Highrise and Campfire
is not going to continue, it’s going to get rolled into something else and
that’s not really what we want. What we preferably would want is somebody
just like us who just happens to be really excited about doing Highrise,
just like we’re really excited about doing Basecamp.
Steve: It sounds tough. I mean, you basically have to sell your baby.
David: Yeah, it’s not easy, it really isn’t. And that’s why we’re also
leaving the door open that it’s not going to happen, even though we have
gotten a lot of offers of interest I would much rather us say, “Well, we
have all these people want to buy Highrise but they don’t want to do it in
the right way. They want to shut it down and they just want to buy the
customer base and roll it into something else. Let’s just keep it running,
that way at least we can ensure that people who are happy with Highrise as
it is today can continue to use it.” Because one thing we learned with the
Basecamp transition was a lot of people love Basecamp Classic, they’re just
not interested in something new and they’re happy with the product as it
is. I mean, the new version of Basecamp has been out for two years now and
there’s a lot of Classic users still and they’re just not interested in
Steve: We were on it for a while too.
David: They like everything about it and who are we to argue with
Steve: We had trouble switching over at first and actually it was
really because of one single feature, the inability to send private
messages was the big killer for us for a while so we were thrilled when
that popped back in there because we really wanted to make the switch.
Tim: Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff that Steve sends on Basecamp that we
don’t want to communicate with clients.
Steve: Not so much.
Tim: But so, you’re focusing on one product, is there a long term vision
for Basecamp? How do you see looking back, say three years from now,
looking back on Basecamp, how does that vision change from where it was in
the beginning and where do you want the product to be, how do you want it
to be perceived?
David: Sure. I think there’s a couple things that have changed since
we launched Basecamp. One of the big ones, of course, is that it’s not just
on web anymore, there’s a lot of other devices and ways to access Basecamp
that we want to be on. So, over the past year plus we’ve been working a lot
on mobile apps. We pushed out an iPhone version of Basecamp a while back,
an official version of Basecamp, we just launched the Android version of
Basecamp. We’re working on Basecamp for iPad, we’re working on a number of
other things that involve native apps both for the Mac and for all these
mobile devices and that just takes more effort, it just takes longer.
Making an iPhone app is not a quick thing to do and it takes a lot longer
than making good stuff for the web. And so we have sort of these pressures
of sort of we have to have Basecamp be in more places and that takes a lot
of effort and then we want to keep making Basecamp better. We have a
trillion ideas for how to improve Basecamp and make it better, some of them
are incremental ideas of, “Oh yeah, we could do this, we could upgrade
Some of them are more revolutionary ideas because when we think of
Basecamp we think of, “How can we help people do project based work?”
That’s a very broad mission statement, it’s not, “Currently we solved that
problem through a handful of tools, we have to-do lists and we have text
documents and so on.” But that’s not a “that’s the end of the universe”
kind of thing, you could solve that problem in a ton of different ways so
we’re experimenting more with radical new ideas, radical new ways to solve
the same old problem, and I think that that was really brought on when we
decided to do what every software company in the world says you should
never do, which was to completely rewrite the product. The new version of
Basecamp that we launched was a rewrite from scratch, which of course was
also why some features, like you guys wanted private communication outside
the client, just wasn’t there in the beginning because when you rewrite
from scratch . . .
Steve: Yeah, it just takes a while to get in.
David: I mean, we spent seven years making the old version of
Basecamp, the Basecamp that it was, so naturally in nine months or whatever
that it took from us starting on the new Basecamp until we launched it,
actually more like a year, we couldn’t re-implement everything.
Tim: When you were building the cross-platform, you had the web and then
you did the iPhone app and the iPad and the Android stuff, were the
challenges workflow challenges or just having the available resources? Or
were you finding significant UI/UX differences from platform to platform?
David: I think all of the above. I think one of the things is just
when you’re on the native devices you’re not, it’s kind of like Flash in a
sense where, if you remember when everybody was doing flash, you had to
reinvent a lot of things because you could do anything, it’s a blank
structure. I know that these days you can do almost all of the same things
but there’s a natural structure to things that I find just makes things
easier and faster. There’s also the whole development cycle, the release
cycle, the fact that we can program in a higher level programming language
like Ruby, the fact that the API’s that you deal with are simpler, there’s
just a lot of factors that make the web simpler to deal with and many of
those things are just you’re targeting a lesser level of sophistication. A
lot of people on native devices expect higher sophistication that they
would get from a website. So, naturally that just takes longer.
So, I think that that’s part of what makes things slower and
certainly I would contend that creating websites in Ruby is naturally just
going to be more productive than creating native apps in Objective-C. I
think there’s distinct differences there, that’s not taking anything away
from Objective-C, I think it’s a very well designed system and Apple did a
great job with the API’s, doesn’t mean that there’s not a productivity
disparity there. And on top of that there’s also learning disparity, we may
hone the web incredibly well, we’ve been building apps for the web for the
past 15 years, jumping on native and mobile for us was something new. We
had a bunch of guys who started basically from scratch, didn’t know
anything about native development and taught themselves how to do it, and
we also hired a couple people who were experts on it to help speed that
along. But it’s definitely a ramp up.
Mark: Yeah, and I’d imagine at the very least you had a shared back end
between all of them that while you had to be doing the GUI and everything
from scratch in Objective-C, versus the web app, you have a common server
component and database that you’re pulling from so there’s at least some
familiarity there. But, yeah, I imagine a lot of that had to have been from
the ground up.
David: That shared base, that’s the reason why we’ve been able to do
what we do. I mean, if you look at a lot of native apps in companies that
have fallen around them, they have more than all this that we have for the
whole thing just for one app. So, we have to use leverage and our leverage
is that we use basically a monolithic Basecamp app on the back end.
Everything flows through one Rails app. All of the mobile devices, they
have native navigation, they have native sort of wrappings and so on, but
they also share a bunch of mobile web views basically encapsulating HTML.
Those web views are all served directly from the same server, we even share
those web views between different mobile apps, so the Android app and the
iPhone app, they share a lot of stuff and that’s the reason we can do what
If we were basically re-implementing all of Basecamp in native per
device, no, you can’t be a programming team of 11, that’s just not going to
work. You’re going to need a much, much larger team. So, we still have to
look for that leverage but that was also what we looked for in why we did
this whole transition in that even when we’re using leverage, even when we
are using this shared back end and main app, 11 developers and five or six
designers is not a whole lot of people. If you want to be covering all your
apps, still be great on the web, and do email and do all these other
things, you can’t also then do every single other, all sorts of other apps.
Right? Because all the other apps, they have the same constraints too. Like
on Highrise, people want to use Highrise on their phone, they want to use
it on their tablet and so on so we couldn’t do all that justice.
Mark: Yeah, it takes a significant team to be able to accomplish that. If
you look at someone like Netflix who has native apps on . . .
Mark: Yeah, on every kind of device and every TV connected device from Roku
and Apple TV to PlayStations to Wii and DS, just really everything under
the Sun and that’s a massive undertaking, especially when you don’t want it
to be like an old Java Applet or Flash where it’s “build once, deploy
everywhere” because that’s really not what they’re doing and it’s not in
your values either, clearly. It’s deploy the thing that really fits this
ecosystem while taking advantage of our share of assets.
David: Totally, absolutely. And I think that that’s just the bar on
just the number of computing devices you have to be on is really high these
days. And if you want to do that well, even when you’re sort of using
leverage as we are, it just takes a lot of people and I think that that was
one of the things that Jason focused on a lot was just we care intensely
about being a small company. For a lot of other companies this wouldn’t be
a problem, it’s like, “Hey, fantastic. We have a whole suite of popular
apps, let’s just hire a bunch more people then we can have 50 people just
on Highrise and then we can have 150 people just on Basecamp. Great.”
Steve: Then you can have middle managers and cubicles and all that
David: Right, exactly, and now we can have all these layers and all
this stuff and . . .
Mark: Middle managers for all. You get a middle manager and you get a
middle manager. It’s like Oprah.
David: Exactly. And no thanks.
Mark: Giving up bureaucracy instead of houses.
David: Yeah, we want to still be at a company where we’re a small
company where we don’t have dedicated managers. We still to this day, we
don’t have anybody in the company who just manage, everybody works. I work,
Jason works, Ryan works, everybody who also does management also does real
work and you just can’t do that if you’re 250 people or 300 people. You
need dedicated managers who do nothing but manage and that’s not the kind
of company we want to build.
Tim: And so when I first heard of the name change I immediately went to
Twitter/Basecamp to see if you had the handle and it looks like someone
else had it and I was wondering what is the process of actually changing
then name and how do you deal with specifically that Twitter handle that
someone else has?
Mark: The sort of nuts and bolts marketing.
Tim: Yeah, like just switching over all the stuff I noticed you guys on
the Basecamp page link to 37signals Twitter account and link to
Facebook/37signals, and how do you deal with updating all that stuff?
David: There’s no quick win, it’s a mighty long process and when it
comes to the Twitter handle, we’ve tried a lot of different things. The
main thing we tried to do was basically to reach out to the guy who
currently has it because he’s not using his account, he has one Tweet from
four years ago and he’s following four people.
Tim: Yeah, he’s the worst, that guy’s awful.
David: So, it just didn’t seem like he was very active so we tried to
do all sorts of detective work to get a hold of him and talk to him, that’s
not been successful so now we’re again trying through Twitter and seeing if
there’s something we can do because, as you say, lots of people did that
and lots of people and lots of people are Tweeting this poor guy at
Basecamp, well, not poor guy because he’s not checking his Tweets so he
doesn’t know that he’s got tons of people are mentioning @Basecamp all the
time because they just assume that that’s what it is.
Mark: I’m assuming they’ve probably been doing that for years. I mean,
since the inception of Twitter.
David: Yes, they have, absolutely, which is why Twitter does have a
process for claiming things on trademark but they have to be about
infringement. It’s kind of like if somebody had a domain name and they’re
not trying to impostor you then you’re not going to be able to just get it.
Mark: Yeah, he’d have to be trying to sell a product in a similar sphere as
yours also called Basecamp or defaming you, I imagine.
David: Right, and there are actually people doing that. There’s two
Twitter accounts, there’s one called “basecampnews” and one called
“BaseCampHQ” and both of those are actually hawking other competing
products which is, that’s distinctly against the Twitter rules.
Mark: That’s ballsy.
David: Yeah, and unfortunately we haven’t yet had any luck with
Twitter to get those taken down or handed over or whatever but I’m sure
that that’s just a process issue versus in the other case it’s a little
more tricky, although Twitter does have, supposedly, a process of if
somebody has banded an account, we should be able to get it. Anyway, we’re
sort of reaching out through all the channels that we can and trying to fix
it. Mainly, I mean, we want to have @Basecamp.com, it’s too bad for all the
Twitter users who think that if they’re writing @Basecamp.com they’re
writing to us and they aren’t. So, hopefully there’s a way through that.
For Facebook, I think somebody else is also just squatting the account, not
actually using it for anything.
Tim: I tried to register it yesterday, I couldn’t get in.
David: Yeah, we’ve tried as well. So, I think maybe there’s a process
there too for us to claim it but I’m sure it’ll work out. I mean, the fact
is it’s a little annoying but it’s not like it’s the end of the world. For
a very long time we didn’t even have BASECAMP.COM, we were BASECAMPHQ.COM.
Tim: I remember that.
Mark: Maybe you just register all of the social media URL’s but with
Bascamp in leet.
Mark: In leetspeak. So Basecamp, what? 8-4-5-3 . . .
Steve: That might introduce some search problems.
Mark: Yeah, that would be terrible. Oh, I’m not trying to say this a good
idea, this is a terrible idea.
David: Well, I mean, we will do that if that’s what we can do. If we
have to be GoBasecamp or HelloBasecamp . . .
Mark: Well, that’s more reasonable than leetspeak.
David: . . . or BasecampTweets, I mean, it’s not like we’re the only
company in the world who have this problem. There’s plenty of companies
that just showed up late to the party and their Twitter handle was taken
just like the domain was taken. BASECAMP.COM, we ran for, I don’t know,
seven or eight years before we actually bought BASECAMP.COM.
Tim: Was there anything about the name change process that stuck out to
you as weird? Like you didn’t think you’d have to deal with something so
David: It’s actually been pretty easy, I think the hardest part has
just been the emotional part. I mean, I’ve been working with 37signals for
what? 12 years now or 13 years? That’s a long emotional investment in a
name. I mean, I’v identified myself with 37signals for a very, very long
time and so has a lot of the employees that we have. So, even though it
made total sense and Basecamp is a better brand because it’s a broader
brand and is our commercial brand, it still stung a little to say, “Well,
we’re not going to be 37signals anymore.” So, but, I think that that’s what
it is. When we think of it now and when we’re going to think about it in
one year from now when everything just lines up like, “Oh, who do you work
for?” “I work at Basecamp,” and you don’t have to do the explanation.
Up until this point people ask me, “Oh, so what do you do?” “Well, I
work at 37signals.” And they’re like, “Oh, what’s 37signals?” And I’d be
like, “Oh, we make Basecamp.” “Oh, Basecamp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love
Basecamp.” Like, “My friends use it,” or, “I use it at work,” or whatever
else. A lot of people know about Basecamp, it’s just a better brand than
37signals. 37signals is a great brand within a small technical niche, it
has incredibly high street cred, probably higher street cred than Basecamp
has because we’ve invested so much energy into evangelizing and speaking
from that platform but Basecamp certainly is a much broader thing. And I
think that one of the things that, for example, led us to publish books
with a publisher was that we’re also interested just in reaching outside
our natural sphere of influence. I think most of the ideas that we have and
certainly the software that we make applicable to far more people than just
the somewhat small, insular, technical circles that we’ve been used to
traveling in for quite a long time.
Tim: So, what is the future of Basecamp, the company? What else are the
things that you’re pursuing? I read that you’re starting an online
publication called The Distance.
David: Yeah. So, we’ve been talking about what we do, we’ve been
writing, publishing, speaking about what we do since the very beginning,
that’s not going to stop. I mean, we are going to continue to have opinions
and we’re going to continue to want to share those opinions. We’re going to
continue to see things where we feel like there’s a hole.
Mark: You consider starting a podcast.
David: We actually ran a podcast for a while, The 7signals’ Podcast, I
think that was back in 2006, 2007 we ran it for a while. We did our online
shows, we had, I think it was called 37signals Live, which was sort of a
call-in show where Jason and me and others would jump on a webcam and
people could ask us whatever questions every now and then. Obviously we
published more than 10,000 posts Signal vs. Noise over the past decade
plus. So, all those things are going to continue. When we say we’re only
going to be Basecamp, we mean the product. There’s going to be one product
that we focus on and the sort of us speaking, talking, and ranting, and
musing on things is going to continue in all sorts of interesting forms.
Signal vs. Noise now has it’s own domain, signalvnoise.com, and The
Distance is kind of like taking some parts of what we used to do on Signal
vs. Noise where we would highlight specific companies, we’d run a series
called Bootstrapped, Proud, & Profitable for a long time that a lot of
people liked. The Distance is kind of like that but for a different
approach, for a different niche, bt the same kind of thing.
Tim: Cool. Well, is there anything else you want to tell folks about
Basecamp or anything upcoming?
David: Well, if you haven’t signed up already you should. If you tried
Basecamp in the past and haven’t tried the new version you definitely
should. Let’s see, what else is there? I mean, we just, we continue to hone
and improve the few things that we care about. I mean, I have a lot of
other interest in things that I want to do with my life but when it comes
to business and my craft I want to make room for all those other things by
focusing just on a few things and making those really, really good. And for
me that’s Basecamp and it’s Ruby on Rails, those are the things and I look
forward to making those a lot better.
Tim: Excellent, and we definitely appreciate all your work and
contributions to the community, it means a lot. We appreciate it.
David: Thank you.
Tim: But, we know you’re busy and we don’t want to keep you for much
longer. We definitely really, really appreciate you coming on the show,
this was awesome. Thanks for taking the time to speak with us.
David: Sure. My pleasure.
Tim: And what’s the best way for people to harass you? Is that Twitter?
David: Twtiter’s definitely the number one harassment post that I
have, @dhh is the handle I Tweet from.
Steve: Three chacracters, nice.
Tim: Yeah, that’s hardcore.
David: Yeah, it was funny because I actually got invited to Twitter
when they were still developing it and I could absolutely not see the
point. At that time, as you just said, is was more about sort of keeping up
with your friends and which bar you were at right and that wasn’t anything
I was doing. So, I actually didn’t have the @dhh handle for a while, I had
“d2h” and then thankfully I got the “dhh” handle some years back. It was a
little easier at that time to reclaim over things, now it’s a big
corporation so it’s a little tougher.
Mark: I was going to say, here we are six years later and you get to enjoy
the spoils of your three character Twitter handle like having your life
attempted to be overthrown by hackers hoping to gain control of your three
character handle. I hope that doesn’t happen to you.
David: I think perhaps three characters is just long enough to be out
of that hacker target.
Mark: Just over the edge.
David: Especially because it’s “dhh” and I think the things that that
stands for are not that exciting. I think there’s something like a health
organization somewhere and a few other things, it’s more like when you have
“N” or whatever I think they’d be more of bull’s eye.
Mark: More of a target.
Tim: I bet we can find something in Urban Dictionary that it stands for.
Tim: Cool. Well, we have an event coming up here at Fresh Tilled Soil,
it’s called The Experienced Dev, it’s on February 27th here at the
Watertown office. It is a development conference for managers of creative
teams to better a relationship between designers and developers, it’s going
to be super cool. Anyone listening, I think there’s 20 some odd tickets
left at this point and you should check it out at
freshtilledsoil.com/experience/dev, it’s going to be super awesome. As
usual, you can get us on Twitter @thedirtshow and please review us on
iTunes and I’ll send you pictures of Steve.
Steve: That’s not an appealing offer.
Mark: He’s wearing a very nice tuxedo in the picture.
Tim: Well, he has a nice bow tie on. That’s all we have for today, thank
you for listening and we will try to do better next time.
Tim: There’s two fish in a tank, one fish turns to the other fish and
says, “How do you drive this thing?”
Steve: Bad joke.
Mark: I actually really like that one.