This week on the show we sit down with Lou Rosenfeld of Rosenfeld Media to talk about the role of physical media in Web Design/Development education. Rosenfeld Media has put out many of our favorite books over the years; it was a real treat to sit down and chat with the man behind the paper.
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Steve: You’ve made a statement as to what would earn an explicit tag here and we need to honor it.
Tim: Hello and welcome to The Dirt. I am Tim Wright. And today, I’m here with Steve Hickey.
Steve: Good morning.
Tim: Good morning, Steve. And also Mark Grambau.
Mark: Hey, Tim.
Tim: Hey, Mark. And we’re also here with extra special guest, founder of Rosenfeld Media, Louis Rosenfeld. Lou, welcome to the show.
Lou: Thanks, guys. Glad to be here.
Tim: Oh we’re glad to have you. This is our fifth…
Steve: Fifth sounds right.
Tim: Yes, the fifth show on the education series that we’re doing and we wanted to have Lou on the show because Lou is a well-known publisher and he gives a great series of books that he puts out at Rosenfeld Media and there’s that angle of education where we obviously…
Steve: Book learnings [inaudible 00:00:57] trying to say.
Tim: And today, we’ve been talking about education through the web through organizations that put together video courses. We’ve talked about higher education and dig into private publishing as a really I think interesting direction, especially as the web, teaching the web on the web, we all understand it makes sense.
The web is a constantly evolving media and the education, the content online can evolve just as quickly. And here, Lou, you are running a company that certainly making books that you have to build timeless content, right? You put out something that is in print and the web keeps on growing and changing.
Lou: Yeah, I mean isn’t that kind of weird, right? We are doing something on dead streams when most things are going digital. Although I think our first book came out in 2007 and from the very start, we’ve always sold digital versions alongside our paperback versions.
I mean this is one of the interesting things that books as an educational tool, is that, I think, for one, they’re in a way underrated. We’re so used to them. But as a publisher, I’m finding that they’re being used in new ways, especially when people are in possession of both paper and digital. They’re not mutually exclusive. They’re actually complimentary.
I’m finding that although I thought paper would go way down at around the same time people really started using Kindles and iPads, it hasn’t really. It’s just kind of grown the market overall because people use those formats together in very different ways.
Tim: That’s interesting. Are you seeing that people are purchasing both the print and the digital versions?
Lou: Yeah. I mean we’ve always sold them that way but we know that people are using them together. We certainly have and we stand it totally, the people who come to us and say, “I’ve got a copy of one of your paperbacks or some other channel maybe through Amazon or something like that. Can I somehow get a cheap deal on the eBooks, or vice-versa?”
Steve: Yeah, I’ve found it over time, the more eBooks I’ve read, the more they’ve increased my appreciation for the physical copy. I just find them so much less distracting. I can actually sit down and absorb a physical copy of a book but being able to reach back into the digital copy as I go if I’m somewhere where I don’t have access to the physical copy is a really nice trait of being able to have both of those together. So it seems a really enlightened viewpoint to focus on both really.
Lou: Well I don’t know. I mean maybe it would be sort of silly even in 2007 not to try it. But I think there’s a lot of assumptions that we’ve been challenging in all contexts, digital, well all contexts of media. Just last night, I got an email from one of our authors who said, “Someone brought up to my attention that my book’s PDF is on a pirated server in China,” and that’s really frustrating.
On the other hand, we think it probably is not harmful and it may be helpful. It actually, you know, that’s annoying and illegal and all those types of things. It actually may have some marketing value in a way.
Steve: I would suspect that in the industry we’re in, that might actually be even less of a problem just because your primary audience, they all seem to really understand the ideas around intellectual property and you might not lose as much sales to piracy. I don’t know if there’s any data to support that but just it’s something I would observe from the behavior of people around us.
Mark: To this day, I really don’t know what the alternatives are to try and combat piracy. We saw a big wave when music first became available digitally commercially, of putting DRM all over the content. And it was found that it was the people who wanted to, could strip the DRM and it didn’t really stop them. And for the people who just wanted the music and couldn’t strip the DRM, it put unwanted constraints on them when they wanted to put it on in their iPod and their CDs and they might run into the limitations.
The people who want to pirate this content, you’re not going to stop them from right clicking, from finding a way to do it.
Lou: Yeah. I mean, why it pisses people off that you shouldn’t be pissing off. The other ones are going to ruin and run. So we’ve never had DRM. And there are other issues like in certain markets where translations are popular. We’re just grateful to sell the rights because someone will translate it and sell it on their own if we don’t have a partner to do that with us.
So yeah, I mean, things have changed quite a bit. I think it must be really hard if, for example, you’ve been in an industry like publishing for your whole career, 30-40 years and suddenly, you’re dealing well into new things. I have empathy for people in that situation but you’ve got to be flexible and you’ve got to be willing to try things.
Steve: Yeah. So how did you get into publishing initially?
Lou: Well, I have a couple of streams that led me there. One is that I’m a librarian by training.
Steve: Oh, wow.
Lou: And that’s my background educationally. And librarians actually have a pretty conscientious role traditionally with publishers. We have different motivations with the same products. But certainly I was thinking about books in terms of the economics of publishing from that perspective for years.
I am also an author. I started off as an O’Reilly author. Actually even before O’Reilly, I had done a couple of books with other publishers. And I wanted to see more user experience related titles to make it to market. In fact, Information Architecture for the World Wide Web, which I co-wrote with Peter Morville, came out in 1998, was probably the first UX book or even design-related book that O’Reilly did. I think they had to get their arms twisted to put it out and it’s been really successful since.
So a lot of publishers even with that kind of track record of promise of UX books, they saw good sales. They didn’t really want to dedicate an imprint or specific line of books to user experience design. I initially approached a couple of publishers about essentially being a series editor. But they really only wanted to dip a toe in and I’m an entrepreneurial type so I decided, “Well, what the hell, I’ll just do it myself. I’ll setup another company.” I’ve had companies before, and have the control and try some new approaches out. But we could really eat our own UX dog food and try a different approach to publishing.
So just as an example of that, before we ever put out a book, we did extensive user research on book design for the user experience practitioner. And we also did prototyping and actual usability testing of both paperbacks and digital editions. So we did things like take our first title, before we sent it to the printer and sent it off to a print-on-demand company to get paper prototypes.
Steve: That’s fantastic.
Lou: Why not, right? It is ridiculous not to.
Tim: And what does that process look like of user testing a book?
Lou: Well, this is already about seven or eight years ago. I’m sure we wrote about it. I did this with a little time to go but a lot of the tests were around things like understanding. Can you understand what this book is about from a glance? Can you find information in the book? What types of navigation might you use to move around the book? Can you do any kind of recall for something you’d already found earlier? Things along those lines. And it really helped us because one of the things that were important to us was to come up with a design approach that was repeatable but tunable.
So if you look at our first book which came out in 2007, which is Indi Young’s Mental Models, and our next book, which is Indi Young’s Practical Empathy, which is coming out just after new year, that will be I think our 22nd title. And our design has changed with every book and in preference to the needs of every author but it’s still the same design. It’s better but if you look at the first one, if you look at the 22nd book, you can see that the design is essentially the same family and same design.
Tim: So that brings up an interesting topic. The books that you guys put out are gorgeous. The cover art is just amazing.
Steve: Oh yeah.
Tim: Is there one person doing all of that?
Lou: It’s one company. So there’s a company in Philadelphia called “The Heads of State” which is just a fantastic firm that has been the art director for all the titles across the whole 23 covers now, since we have two books coming out shortly. They have either created the artwork or have had people they know did the artwork in certain cases and they’re extremely well-connected. So they’ve gotten some pretty high-profile illustrators to do some of our covers when they haven’t done them themselves.
But these guys are fantastic. Jason Kernevich and Dustin Summers at The Heads of State, they do stuff REM and Wilco. And I remember reading New York Times Sunday Magazine a year or two ago and really loving the cover of the magazine and looking up to see who did it and it was them.
Steve: They look fantastic, the whole series holds together really well. I think it helps make them stand out.
Lou: Thank you.
Mark: Yeah. My background as an illustrator and I’m always so happy to see illustration on the covers of these books. Because I think back to technology education books from the 90s to nearly 2000s and, I don’t know, even still today, it’s like learning CSS or mastering Photoshop, and there are like a photo of a computer with a person I didn’t like, looking quizzical or like a pen on a desk next to a calculator. I’m like, “Ohh…”
Lou: And don’t forget the flying CD-ROM disc.
Steve: Oh, of course.
Mark: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, naturally. The CD-ROM. Yeah, god. So I’m just so happy to see really fantastic illustrators and designers in this industry and the Rosenfeld Books have been a really great manifestation.
Lou: Well, thank you. I mean, I’m certainly not a designer and my early ideas were crap. Fortunately I had good advisors who openly connected me with The Heads of State. But one of the things that we tried to do is sort of behave like a platform or a chunk of infrastructure where we create enough boundaries, essentially design the platform and then let people do what they’re good at within that platform.
So all right, we trust those guys to do a really great job on covers. I mean we work with them. We give them ideas. We collaborate. But it’s often to be their call. Same thing with our authors and other people who are involved in the company. You just got to kind of create enough rules and structure to make it happen and keep it from going off the tracks but then get the hell out of the way.
Mark: So with that in mind, can you also then speak to us about the spread of topics across the Rosenfeld Books? There’s a really great variety of topics. You just speak to how you landed on what book you’re doing next and how you ended up with the spread you have.
Lou: Well, so that’s interesting because it’s in transition and I think that that transition mirrors the evolution of our field. So when we started, we were very focused on highly practical books that would maybe 20% in what and why and 80% how. And so books on things like Prototyping or Card Sorting, among our initial couple of projects and Web Form Design is a very practical book which was actually probably been our bestseller.
Steve: Yeah, that’s how it’s introduced to the series.
Lou: As a lot of other people. But the field has been moving more and more away from the nuts and bolts and there’s still many new people enter in the field and knew the nuts and bolts, how to material and we still do some of that. But we’ve been moving more and more toward the upstream for the field which is going to be things like product management, strategy, where design intersects with business. And so a lot of our newer titles are on things like main user research for the product development or product management, [inaudible 00:14:44].
Dave Gray’s as yet untitled book which is a follow up to the Connect With Company, which is really going to be about understanding and making sense of systems in the large organization’s context. I mean that’s not what I thought we would be doing necessarily when we started. But we’ve been trying to keep fresh and a lot of it also comes down to the relationships we have, learning from people that are really smart and seeing if what they’re doing makes sense with books and letting those relationships drive to some degree, our editorial agenda.
Steve: I think it’s an interesting approach just because you can leave some of the house stuff to a medium that’s very adaptable whereas the lie is a very timeless topic and it stands up well in a physical form, I think. Like those are books I could keep for years and years and years and still go back to and learn something from.
Lou: Exactly. I mean, we’ve always tried to go timeless even within the practical realm. Like a book on Card Sorting, that book I think is six years old now and I just was using it for a project this week. But obviously certain books are going to be able to more technology dependent or product dependent, both would change and so the books become more out-of-date faster.
But one of the things that we’re grappling with right now is just how do we do what everyone in the field wants to do in book form, mainly either get in front of business decision maker or become the business decision makers. And we’re actually considering a whole new line of books that’s designed to be something you might see at the airport in books or business section.
However, it’s very hard to pull that off because it’s not just a design challenge. It’s actually a different business model altogether. So we’ll see if that happens.
Mark: So are you seeing people purchasing these books for more professional development reasons or are you seeing them find their way into classrooms as well?
Lou: Oh, they are totally finding their way to classrooms as well as people buying them on their own. We know that because we do a lot of academic sales despite the fact that we don’t necessarily make it easy to do academic sales. Because the academic book buyers are not really easy to do business with and that is somehow happens.
Yeah, I mean if you want to go back in time to doing business by fax for example, you’ll try some books through the academic bookstores. But that said, we actually know that a lot of our books are being used as text books. We give away desk copies all of the time and it’s really good to see.
One of the things we find that’s very difficult and over-frustrating is being able to connect with people who are teaching, especially in higher education and are using our books or want to use our books. We know that they’ll take a desk copy. They’re very happy to do that. Those are free. So we don’t really have much of a chance to get to talk with them beyond that. So give any suggestions there. We love to be in touch more with teachers in our field.
Steve: It’s an interesting question too because I mean if you can sort of cut the school bookstore out of the mix and just have the teachers advocating to buy direct from the source, you’ve got less bullshit, it sounds like and certainly it’s good for the students.
Lou: But there’s another issue there. I mean we try to do that and we sometimes do do that but to be born, students and to some degree faculty, believe that they shouldn’t have to pay for books.
Steve: Yeah, I’ve run into that before.
Lou: Yeah and I’m not entirely unsympathetic. I mean part of the problem is, the text books, as you know, are insanely priced and that’s a racket and looking at new Pearson and so on.
Mark: I have a book out with Pearson.
Lou: But I mean when you see a text book that’s $100, your tuition is just gone up 15%. It’s really unconscionable. We price our books a lot less than that and always have. We get sort of hard with the same writer or publisher so they’re making lot of money off of this. So it’s not fair. So if you receive the books, great.
Steve: I don’t think I was specifically aware of Rosenfeld when I was a student but I did appreciate that in the design section of my university, it was very easy to buy books not from the school bookstore because there are a lot of the publishers. It wasn’t the traditional textbook way of doing things. It was more of let’s put out books for people instead of let’s sell textbooks for students at ridiculously inflated rates.
Lou: Well, I mean one of the things that, if we had more bandwidth, and we certainly talk about it a lot that we like to do is to start giving our books to select design related academic programs, just giving the digitals. I don’t think we could afford to give them the paperbacks. Then we’ll need to be subsidizing a bit but I would rather just get in front of that problem and just say, “All right. Hey, if you’re enrolled in Carnegie Melon or CCA or something like that, the books are on server. Use them and maybe when you graduate, you’ll think about us. And when our new books come out, you’re actually think about buying it at that point.” So while you’re a student, it’s almost like pointless to try to sell for that market.
Mark: Well and it’s hard. I mean across the industry there’s difficulty of trying to get people to pay for digital media. And it goes up and it goes down. But in the end, it has less to do with, “Oh, those people who want their movies or their articles or books for free are evil.”
There’s a basic fundamental human psychological element there that we understand paying for a physical thing. We understand it better because we can picture the manufacturing and the making. But when you think about the digital good, all of the money goes into the initial first build and then when the production of each individual copy costs zero effectively, then it’s much harder to understand the, “Why am I paying this much?” And it’s why you get the race to the bottom in app stores. It’s just…
Lou: That’s me applauding and thank you so much. Let me just add to that. One of my roles, my main role as a publisher is not to put out books. My role is to find, curate and get really good expertise in our field to the market in ways that make the most sense. So we can [inaudible 00:21:51] these books, we also do consulting and coaching and training services and do that.
We have looked again and again at doing things in a completely digital video-based learning formats, things like what Lynda does and Skillshare and Treehouse and so forth. I think those are really interesting and exciting areas. But I will tell you this, the production costs are almost the same as putting out a book. None of the certainty of the business model of a book, and I’m not saying that books are easy or perfect by any means. I would love to figure out a way to do more in that space as it’s emerging but it’s the Wild West. No one has really figured it out, especially for smaller markets audiences like ours, even though it’s growing. It’s still relatively small compared to let’s say what it really does for designers or developers.
And it’s kind of frustrating because what’s happening is we get all these services out there that have to invest in their particular style or format of making content available. So there’s a formula to that format but it’s expensive and hard to do. And so what they end up doing is just trying to capture as much market share for video-based learning, let’s say as they possibly can. Just like we try to do for books or maybe UIE tries to do for virtual seminar every four days. And unfortunately, it’s not how people learn. They don’t just pick a format.
And so what we ended up is infinite walled gardens buy format and there is not a good and natural way to map all those different formats to the way that individuals learn. But I’d love to see and we’re talking of education here, talking with my clients, with our company’s services clients, that they need a combination of books and videos and consulting and coaching and conferences and other types of content around a topic that they’re trying to learn about, that they’re trying to improve in terms of their internal practices. They don’t just need books. They don’t just need video-based training.
And so we have this real problem that I know there’s a little bit of progress in terms of creating some standards for interoperability so that you could actually throw a bunch of different formats from different sources and for learning management system. But I think it’s really early and those LMSs from what I understand are generally shit. I wouldn’t want to use them.
Steve: It’s a problem we’re actually really concerned with here too because we run an apprenticeship program and we’ve been able to observe firsthand over the past couple of years that just every different person has a different style and we need to find a way to feed that somehow. But let’s say you’re at a certain point in your education of your career. Maybe you can afford to pay your way into one of these wild gardens but the different subject you’re trying to tackle, you might learn most effectively across multiple ones and you’re closed off from that. We want to find a way to get people the method of education that will work best with them.
Steve: Yeah, it’s exhausting and we haven’t figured it out yet either but we’re looking at it.
Lou: Oh, then there’s other issues that you probably are buried in that role. So you’re working with a client and they…I had this problem this year where we tried to say, “Look, we know you have on your list of things to do to go out and find training on UX topic or whatever, responsive design, that’s great.” But just having a workshop where someone comes in and does the traditional there too, as good as that can be, and we saw 16 different workshops right now, it’s just something that’s on a checklist.
And then there’s no momentum. There’s no institutional knowledge that’s gained. It’s just like with blip in time and that’s that. It’s almost, I don’t want to say pointless but it’s certainly not nearly as valuable as something that’s more integrated and built to adapt to the needs of learners inside the organization and to sustain that over time. And we actually developed to practice development, engagement program. The clients out there, it’s really hard to sell it to them because it’s like, “Well, we have a training line item in our P&L.”
Steve: We have a line item so this has to work.
Lou: It’s got to be training or something. It’s like they can’t really get them to see that it’s not about training. It’s about learning. However, that should go into training.
Mark: Yeah, it’s crazy how much the semantics dictates the practice itself. You can tie your hands with the semantics like those, especially when it’s a line item and there’s a budget behind it.
Tim: And it’s even hard to get that line item shoved in there sometimes.
Steve: Oh yeah.
Tim: Plus convincing people that they need to know more things is very difficult.
Steve: If convincing the people who need to know it is hard, convincing the people who ought to be paying for, it is hard. I mean I’ve run in the people before and they’ve just reached a certain point in their career and decided that’s good enough. And then also you run into people who ought to be managing the training of their employees and maybe it’s specific to a career like this. But in certain companies, that’s regarded as well why aren’t they doing the job of keeping themselves up? Why is that my problem? And I think it’s, what’s your problem if you don’t train them and they stay at your company? You need to find a way to elevate them.
Lou: Yeah, you’re absolutely right and a few more enlightened people making those types of decisions realize that retention is a lot cheaper than hiring acquisition of talent and that retention plus education, it’s still much cheaper than acquisition.
Mark: And that you’re balancing two risks. What’s the bigger risk? Educating someone, spending money on an employee’s education and then they go ahead and leave? Or is it a bigger risk to not educate someone and they stay? And then all of a sudden your entire staff is under educated and behind and that’s a slow bleed. It’s hard to understand but it’s you’re still bleeding. It’s death by thousand cuts.
Tim: Well, what we’re finding is that people are coming in with that level, that really high level of knowledge of the new thing, like the new hot thing, but the basics aren’t there. They’ll come in and be like, “Oh, I’m an expert in angular. I built this killer application.” And then we crack it open, like “Okay, but you forgot all text on every image.” Like the principles of you’ve struggle with universal access education often, I bring it up a lot on the show. I know that.
Steve: That’s Tim…
Lou: We’ve got a book for you. I think you know that as well.
Lou: A Web for Everyone.
Mark: Yeah I love that book.
Steve: Tim’s got his drum in slowly but surely we’ve all adopted it because it’s hard to listen to Tim and not say, “Yeah. That makes perfect sense.”
Tim: It was a big drum. [inaudible 00:29:06] mark as Apple. I just bring it all the time. So yeah, I think it’s important that we build the awareness around the importance of education, multifaceted education and that. Lou, as he said, building the business model to be able to deliver that education in the way that people need it and to be able to make it so that that company that’s doing it, Rosenfeld Media, can continue to be relevant and make the contact because you can’t give it away for free. You need to find a way to make this work long term. And you spoke a little bit about consulting and events and you sort of saw newer angle. Can you speak about a little more where you’re going?
Lou: Sure. Absolutely. Like I said, my job is to get expertise to the market place in ways that make sense. So there’s also a virtuous circle of consulting and writing and teaching or presenting that all feed each other. And if you’re not doing one of them, it’s like a three-legged stool and things fall over.
So about two years ago, we started offering a service that is centered all about teach a man to fish, not about being an agency that you hired to go create something. But instead, provide very deep expertise to help your team do something and do it better. And we have a lot of our own authors but a lot of authors, primarily authors from other companies like O’Reilly and Book Hard and writers, people like [inaudible 00:30:52] Kim Goodwin and so on that are really fantastic resources that are only available for short engagements.
So we started making their services available at sort of one-stop shopping for very high-end expertise in our field. We have I think 53 people we represent now and we’ve been working with a uppity blue chip list of most of large companies, primarily tech companies that already have 100-200 person team in house and they need to do better in specific areas.
So we do the training. We do the coaching. We do the audits and the type of work that you would expect the other folks provide. And we make it simple because we’re one contract, one vendor on-boarding process and we have all those people in the contract already. So you just felt to freeze these kids for making those engagements happen.
We also have kind of gone back and forth on events. And just to kind of tell you where we are right now, we’ve been doing two events a year with our partners and Environments for Humans where there are virtual one-day conferences and we just did one called “UX Futures” a month or so ago which was a real success. I think probably we had about 1,200 people remotely participating with six speakers. And we’re going to continue doing those twice a year.
They’re a lot of fun and they get a lot of people involved all over the planet. We can’t necessarily make it to a big fancy e-conference. We’re going to have a budget maybe too far away whatever it might be. But also in 2015, we are waiting for some new orders. One is we’ve sort of hinted at it but it’s about to go public there with the website in a few days.
Enterprise UX 2015. It’s the first enterprise user experience conference. It’s going to be held in San Antonio on the May 13 and 15. We feel that this is an underserved area. People don’t think it’s sexy. If that’s the case, they don’t get sexy.
Tim: I think it’s crazy sexy.
Lou: It’s crazy. It’s hard.
Mark: Yeah, it’s a big opportunity because user experience makes a difference in sale when your customer is your user and that is easy to understand. It’s like when the person is buying it, they care about what it’s going to be like to use it. And the traditional problem with enterprise UX of course is that the person who is using is not necessarily the person who is buying it and so it’s so important for us to make sure that we build enterprise products that have great experiences because otherwise the buyers are not necessarily going to take it to account. We don’t want them, the user, be stuck with something that’s really underserving them that a pain to use in SAP.
Lou: Oh, absolutely. I mean you really hit the nail in the head. I mean it’s bad. It’s an issue of like there are so many stakeholders dispersed in so many roles and not necessarily in the same organization. But then there are other problems that one of my co-organizers gave me a loop of Rackspace described as wicked, namely it’s just there’s issues of scale. There’s issues of distribution, painfully slow design and development cycles, just bureaucracy in general. So this conference, I’m really excited because it’s not going to be a place where you’re going to learn how to do prototyping or usability testing. It’s a place where you’re going to learn how to essentially have better conversations with your colleagues and other parts of large enterprises so that you can not only do better work both in terms of research and actual design and experimentation. Those are three of our core themes but also designing culture, which is our core theme.
So we’ve got an amazing line up. I’ll just tell you that Greg Petroff from GE, the GE Software UX leader, really transformed that organization. It’s our opening keynote. Dave Gray is our closing keynote, author of Gamestorming, The Connected Company and our forthcoming Rosenfeld Media book, just an amazing line up in between. It’s all going to be live as I said in few days in EnterpriseUX.net. And we’ve also got an interesting project for later in the year which I’ll just hint that very limited, maybe 30 people for a very high-level retreat, very posh place for people lead design organizations.
Lou: And anyone’s interested in that or any of the stuff, I’m happy to hear from you, firstname.lastname@example.org.
Tim: Great. Cool. Well Louis, I want to thank you for taking time out of your day to chat with us.
Steve: Yeah, we really appreciate it.
Lou: Oh, this is a lot of fun guys. A great conversation and I wish we could do it even longer.
Tim: So if people want to get a hold of you, is that email address the best way?
Lou: email@example.com. You can follow me on Twitter @LouisRosenFeld. We tweet a lot from RosenfeldMedia and the website is RosenFeldMedia.com. We just relaunched a few days ago, probably a bunch of bugs but also have a look and let us know what you think of rosenfeldmedia.com.
Tim: Well, the show is coming up with a couple of weeks after recording. So by that point I’m sure the bugs would be fully squashed.
Lou: Oh, sure. I’m sure every one of them.
Tim: Every single lot of them.
Lou: Yeah, that’s right.
Tim: Great. So you can get us on Twitter @thedirtshow and please send your long-winded comments to firstname.lastname@example.org. Please review us on iTunes or wherever you’re listening to us now on. We’ll greatly appreciate it. And again, I want to thank Lou for coming on the show. This was outstanding. That’s all we have for today. Thank you for listening and we will try and do better next time.